George Pérez & Marv Wolfman talk about sex in the Titans Universe.
Marv on sex [from the New Teen Titans letters page]:
Concerning the scene with Dick and Kory [in NEW TEEN TITANS, second series #1] -this has become one of the most controversial panels we've ever presented Many readers wrote in saying "Way to go!" and others said "How could you do that in a book about teenagers?" The question cannot be resolved in a letter column. We didn't mean to use Dick and Kory as role-models. That's never been our intention anyway, but we realize by their being printed and portrayed as heroes (which they are) the mantle of being a role-model rests on their shoulders.
We acknowledge the problem some of you had with the scene and we apologize if it bothered you. We honestly had no idea there would be any problem. We also acknowledge that premarital sex obviously does exist, end we neither condone nor condemn those who believe or disbelieve in it.
I realize I am not giving a straight-out answer. I'm not saying "never again" and I'm not saying "every issue from now on," but we have read your letters, we understand some of you were offended, and we will think long and hard about what to do. We would appreciate hearing from others on this subject even if we do not run any of your letters.
[from FOCUS ON GEORGE Pérez, 1985]
MacDONALD: The first time I ever saw Baxter paper, I think it was the white that was most impressive. Let me ask you now about the famous, or infamous panel. Whose idea was that, the panel of Dick and Kory?
Pérez: Oh, that was mine.
MacDONALD: Uh-huh. And...
Pérez: Well, the simple reason that Dick is 19 years old. I was married at 19. And, Korl's age is indeterminate. Equivalent of an Earth 18-year-old, but their mores are different, and for her it was a totally irrelevant as far as the fact that she was at that age. Marv didn't want to go into a controversy on the letters page, but as far as we re concerned, and particularly as far as I'm concerned, they're both at the age of consent. Dick is not a fool, and if there were any chance of ... them regretting the action later, they would have taken any preventive deeds necessary, but they are both consenting adults, and no matter what-the title says Teen Titans-at 19 years old, those two are legally adult.
MacDONALD: Yeah, I was going to say, Robin has killed. I should say Dick. And there's more hullabaloo than when he's killed someone.
Pérez: They're worrying more about the fact that he's gone to bed with someone whom he's deeply in love with. And the fact that when he kills someone, it was also protecting this same woman, it's like everything he's done that's been out of character for him up till now, has always been because of her. Since a storyline is coming up wherein they go back to Tamaran, and I believe the jist of it-great of Marv not to take to hemming and hawing about it-is the fact that she's going to abdicate. She has absolutely no desire to return to Tamaran.
She wants to stay with Dick, and we have to give her, as far as the readers were concerned, a full reason to stay on Earth. It has to be shown that Dick is not giving her a hard time, that it's unrequited. The fact that they are lovers gives her a legitimate reason to stay with Dick. Otherwise, it would be an insult to the Starfire character if she said, "I'll abdicate my throne," without us being really sure that it was worth abdicating. She does have duties, but the Tamaranians are creatures of emotion, too. And, that one panel, which I did as tastefully as I could, there was no nudity involved, nothing was shown of the act, it's just the fact that she was in what was established as being his bedroom, because I'd drawn the bedroom before. It's the bedroom set I have. And, make no question about it, they were in bed together, and...
MacDONALD: And it wasn't because her bed had disappeared.
Pérez: It wasn't because her bed had disappeared, it was because of the fact that his bed was recognizable. I wanted to use a familiar room, so that you know that she was in there with him. As opposed to any vagueness as to whose bed that is. It's his bed, there's no question about it. It's established. And there were much fewer letters than everyone made it out to be. It got exploded totally out of proportion -
MacDONALD: Oh, then there wasn't a great swell of outrage?
Pérez: No, Marv got a few letters. Enough to say that he had to print one, because he couldn't ignore it, but not in direct proportion to the amount of letters we get. It wasn't a fifth of our mail.
MacDONALD: A couple of issues later, you showed evil Raven and evil Kid Flash, and that's okay. [laughs) Because they're evil, it's not like -
Pérez: If only for the fact that he keeps acknowledging that it's a bad thing for him to do. It's amazing how when it's a bona fide act of love people say we're condoning it. We would never have done that with Changeling. He's 15 years old, he's a minor. We definitely would never have done that. We do have that responsibility, but those two are adults. I don't know about you, but I definitely was in bed by 19.
MacDONALD: [laughs) Okay.
Pérez: Since I was married, I certainly was.
[Comics Interview #50, 1987]
[…]
ANDY: You and Marv received a lot of flak for the scene in TITANS Baxter #1...
GEORGE: Not a lot of flak, we received about three or four letters.
ANDY: We've got to explain this scene, with Dick and Kory in bed.
GEORGE: Both of legal age.
ANDY: Nowadays, you see the OUTSIDERS and everyone bedding down at the drop of a towel.. do you feel somewhat responsible for ushering the "Sexual Age" into DC Comics?
GEORGE: No, because THE HULK did it before us. There was a scene with Bruce Banner in bed with a girl, and nobody made any fuss about that! During the XMEN, I believe, Charles Xavier was shown in bed with, uh -
ANDY: Lilandra?
GEORGE: Lilandra, that was done before ours, too. No one made a fuss there, either. Ours was up front about it. We didn't try to hide it in a small panel. And it was done specifically to show -as Chris would have done, as well - that these people had a relationship that something mattered about. In dealing with the entire thing about Dick and Kory, anything that happened in their relationship was based on the fact that they were real, full lovers. If you don't establish that, their relationship is not full, for them.
They're both of legal age; we would never have done a scene like that with Changeling. We did do a scene like that with Terra, but she was a villainess and she would die for that. Not die for sex. (Laughter.) But, you know, she was a villainess. We're not saying that she is a good person. But no, we would not have done that with Changeling. Dick and Kory were of legal age - and in the case of an alien, what can be legal age? - so we had absolutely no reason to apologize for that. When they reprinted it, they kept the scene intact. As far as the backlash, it seemed like more only because Marv wanted to deal with the actual question. Even though there were very, very few letters about it, Marv wanted to deal with that and state something about it. I think Marv didn't go far enough, myself. -But again, I have an opinion on that type of thing, or am more vocal in some respects. Unfortunately, by doing that, it called attention to it, and I think that it probably got more of a backlash of attention brought on by putting it in the letters page than it ever did appearing in the comic, itself.
[Marv Wolfman Interview from Comics Journal #79 - 1983]
DECKER: Well, that brings up something else about the book, in that the Titans aren't hopping into bed with each other, but there's still an undercurrent of sexuality, like the whole business with the models in the Jeans ads.
WOLFMAN: I thought that was asexual, to be honest.
DECKER: The models had nothing on on top, even though they were just seen from the back.
WOLFMAN: That's today's society. George drew very skinny models, purposely so, and I don't think there was anything sexual about them, quite frankly. I've seen... Kory and'r fully dressed is more sexual...
DECKER: Maybe the point is that you're acknowledging sex as an abstract, if nothing else, as part of a society in which the characters are living.
WOLFMAN: It certainly is. You can't avoid it. The characters have to think and be in that society that's all around us. But we're not being overt. At least I don't think so.
DECKER: No. Although Donna Troy's relationship with her older divorced boyfriend might raise an eyebrow.
WOLFMAN: Again, we're not showing them in bed. What you leave to the readers' imagination is sometimes a lot stronger. Yes, of course, they're having a very healthy sexual relationship. No reason they shouldn't. But we're nor stating in a Kinsey version exactly what they're doing. [laughter]. Nothing's wrong with that. We haven't received a single complaint, and I probably would ignore most of the complaints anyway, because I think we're doing it tastefully.
DECKER: Right. Although isn't she, what, 19?
WOLFMAN: Yeah, she's 19. That's above age. [Laughter]
DECKER: Yeah, well, still, he's ten years older than she is...
WOLFMAN: Yeah. And divorced. And has a kid somewhere. So? That doesn't happen?
DECKER: It almost happens a little too much. It's almost a little too trendy.
WOLFMAN: Not in comics. This is about the first time I think this has happened. But again, we haven't even gone out of our way to keep pointing to it. We mention it once; it's there. And the difference between what I'm trying to do and sometimes what is done in comics is again the lack of giant neon arrows. We set up the characters, they have a very healthy relationship. As far as I'm concerned, at some point in the future they can get married and it wouldn't change Wonder Girl's relationship to the Titans one whit. I don't see why it has to. It's a realistic relationship.
DECKER: Yeah, but perhaps a little too realistic, in that Donna Troy is a super-heroine...
WOLFMAN [puzzled]: Yes?
DECKER: She can ride wind currents, she wears a costume, and she goes out and fights crime.
WOLFMAN: Yeah. And she can't full in love with someone?
DECKER: But he's so prosaic, so normal, he's Lois Lane as a man.
WOLFMAN: At the same time~ he's older than she is. He is someone who's had his kiddy relationship in a sense, already in a sense, and her knowledge and the experiences she comes to, she probably could not have found someone her age that she could have related to. She needed someone who was older who had probably gone through an equivalent type of relationship, and being a history teacher as he is, there certainly would be a lot in common even there.
DECKER: I still tend to think that if there were super-heroes they'd be a very clannish lot, that they would tend to many among themselves, simply because other people wouldn't understand them or know how to relate them.
WOLFMAN: Possibly. Yet... Well, there's no way to determine that, is there? [laughter]
